Second Bible Reading at Oakland, Calif., Sept. 1920 (Rom. 9; 14-33.)

C. C.-I think we should refresh our minds as to the verses which immediately precede where our brother began to read, so I will direct attention again to the nth verse:"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth." As we were saying yesterday, God had a purpose from everlasting, and His election is in view of that purpose. He is absolutely sovereign; it is His prerogative therefore to have a purpose and to carry it out. The matter of election is just simply God making choice in view of His purpose; and, as the apostle states it here, God's purpose stands. Now this purpose of God was formed before ever we existed; He had, therefore, in view those who were to be the objects of His blessing. That is what some might call in question as being unrighteous. For instance, in the cases specified here, before Jacob and Esau were born, and before they had done either good or evil, it is manifest that God had His eye on Jacob for a certain blessing. His choice of Jacob did not depend on what Jacob would be. He did not choose Esau-He chose Jacob. Was God righteous in that ? That is a question often raised. Is there unrighteousness with God ? The apostle resents the thought. It is really an impudent question, which we have no right to raise. We have no right to question God's sovereignty. It is His right to have a purpose and to carry it out.

H. A. I.-And could you not say that, so far as Israel is concerned, it surely was not for them to object to this ?-for, had it not been for God's purpose, they would have been blotted out when they made and worshiped the calf in the wilderness. Is not that involved in the isth verse.

C. C.-Yes. Think of that ! God had entered into covenant relationship with them, with certain terms attached to it. The condition under which the children of Israel were to be His people was obedience; and there was no provision for mercy in that covenant. Therefore it was God's right to blot out the nation when they broke that covenant. And if God was to spare the people, or part of the people, He must retreat into His sovereignty to do it. If He shows mercy to them, or to any part of them, the only ground upon which He can do that is His sovereignty-to exercise His sovereign right to show mercy.

E. A. B.-If that is for good, in man's favor, surely man should not criticize God for it.

C. C.-Surely not; and that is what God's purpose is-for blessing, for mercy. It is not God's purpose to damn certain individuals. It is His purpose to bless.

question:-Does it not say in i Tim. 2:4, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"-come to repentance?

C. C.-Yes; but how can God consistently save anybody ? The answer is, Through grace. He has a righteous way to do this. Some things God cannot do-it is impossible for Him to lie; it is impossible for Him to violate His holiness; He cannot infringe on His righteousness. In everything that He does His own character and nature must be maintained.

QUESTION:-Then, if God says He would have all men to be saved, and it is His goodness that leads to repentance, if He comes in and hardens, may we not conclude that the time for repentance is past ?

C, C.-God Acts according to His sovereignty. Take Esau as an example:Esau did not value his birthright. Well then, says God, you shall not have it.

QUESTION:-Does not the life of Esau, as recorded, justify the sovereignty of God ?-that is, there was no repentance in Esau.

C. C.-It is said of him that, while he sought blessing, he did not repent.

REMARK:-So then, God's sovereignty"in choosing Jacob is demonstrated by Esau's life; that is, God was just in choosing Jacob.

C. C.-I don't think that is the point.

H. A. I.-Might not Esau have looked at Jacob and said, "How could God choose such a rascal as my brother ?-for it was only at the end of Jacob's life that he becomes a true pilgrim and occupies the place of a worshiper.

C. C.-If Jacob was chosen of God, it was not on the basis of what he was or would be in himself.

A. W. P.-Do you mean, Mr. Grain, that the ground of God's choice is nothing in the creature, either actual or foreseen, but it is solely in His own sovereign will ?

C. C.-Yes; certainly.

QUESTION:-Still the creature reaches the state which God in sovereign grace chose for him ?

C. C.-But it is God in His sovereign grace carrying out His purpose and bringing him there.

REMARK:-I do not in any way wish to call in question the sovereignty of God, but merely call attention to the fact that the one God chooses reaches ultimately that which is according to the mind of God.

C. C.-I think it is well to see that, for our souls to be settled and at rest. If I inquire why all this favor is bestowed upon me for a certain destiny, I have but one answer, He has chosen to do it. H. A. I.-You have that in the 16th verse. N. T.-That is the reason I arrive there, because God has chosen to put me there; otherwise I would not have arrived. Esau did not arrive. God, in His sovereignty, left him.

C. A.-Is the one who "wills" (ver. 16) Isaac ? and the one who " runs " Esau ?

H. A. I.-You mean that Isaac willed to give it to Esau, and that Esau "ran" or wished, to get the blessing, but God had chosen Jacob. When it comes to hardening, that is on the part of man's attitude toward God, is it not ?-as in Pharaoh's case. C. C.-Yes; Pharaoh resisted God, and in resisting he hardened himself. That is one side. On the other hand, knowing him perfectly-his disposition, his character, his will, and all that-mercy was shown even to him. But the effect of showing him mercy, was to bring out antagonism, resistance, and in that way God hardened his heart. When Pharaoh saw God's hand was removed, His mercy was only an occasion for further hardening.

C. A.-The words, "For this purpose have I raised thee up," do not mean to bring into the world, but to exalt Pharaoh to the throne of Egypt, do they not ?

C. C.-Yes; God raised him up to a place of power.

N. T.-God raised him up that he might show His power in him as it was shown at the end of his life, wasn't it?

C. C.-Well, the point is that it was God's will to show His power; and there was a man on the throne of Egypt in whom He did show His power. If Pharaoh said,"Who is Jehovah that I should let this people go?" God's reply is, "You will find out who He is." Think of it-a man challenging God ! God takes up the challenge, though still giving opportunity for repentance, showing mercy again and again to lead to it.

H. A. I.-Even the heathen had an expression, " Whom the gods will destroy they first make mad." We may change this to, "Whom God will destroy He first makes mad." God let Pharaoh go on in open opposition to Himself before He destroyed him. It was simply madness on Pharaoh's part.

A BROTHER:-And God did this that His name might be known in the nations around. As in Rahab's case it was said, " Did not we hear what God did for you ? and our heart melted within us."

C. C.-Let us remind ourselves again of the nature and character of God-that is, His eternal un-changeableness. He is the same from everlasting to everlasting. Everlastingly, therefore, sin is repulsive to Him; and God is willing to manifest how repulsive it is to Him.

A brother:-The attributes of God are never added to, nor taken from. He is eternally the same -no increase or decrease; no change, but complete, and eternally the same, is He not ?

C. C.-Certainly. In connection with this I will make a statement for myself. I believe that in eternity God determined that man should manifest himself; and man did so in delivering the Son of Man to the death of the cross.

A. W. P.-How far would you carry this-God allowing man to manifest himself ?-in the details of man's history, as well as his history as a whole ? C. C.-I believe so.

QUESTION:-Would you make the same statement with regard to Satan and his angels ?-that God intended evil should come out through Satan, that He might deal with evil; that this was in God's
counsels ?

C. C.-Yes; evil had its origin in Satan. The way I would put it is this:God determined that the question of the creature's ability to stand or be unable to stand by himself should be demonstrated; and He gave angels, as well as Adam, the opportunity to show whether they could stand on the ground of their responsibility.

N. T.-That is a marvelous thought. It shows how much we are indebted to God. We have nothing but what we have received, and are entirely kept by God,

C. C.-The angels who have not fallen are absolutely indebted to God for their preservation.

QUESTION:-Is that why they are called "the elect angels ? "

C. C.-Yes.

H. A. I.-If a creature is brought into existence, and has a will, his will is sure to work in opposition to God, unless He restrains it.

QUESTION:-What, then, is the responsibility of man to God ?

C. C.-Man's responsibility is to abide in the estate in which God set him. Of course, now that men are fallen, other responsibilities come in; but speaking of the creature as created, the responsibility of the creature was to abide in the estate in which God had placed him. That is true of the angels, as well as of man.

QUESTION:-Have you any thought as to why iniquity was conceived in Satan, when he was created a perfect being ?

C. C.-Yes. I believe that, in some way, God made it known among the angels that He would associate one from among His creatures with Himself on the throne; and Satan, as the most exalted of all angelic intelligences, took the thought to himself, with the conclusion, "I am the one for that place," and so aspired to the throne of God.

QUESTION:-Would you connect the lie, spoken of in John 8:44, with this thought then-Satan contesting this place ?

C. C.-Yes.

W. T. B.-Is that why Satan's coverings are so much like the coverings of the high priest in Ezekiel-showing many of the qualities found in Christ?

C. C.-I think so. He was the most beautiful of all the angelic beings. You have that in Ezekiel 28:11-17.

W. T. B.-I have often marveled over the close resemblance of the coverings of Satan to the breastplate of the high priest, and the foundations of the New Jerusalem.

H, A. I.-In that chapter in Ezekiel the Spirit of God is addressing a man, the prince of Tyre. Beginning with verse 12, He is addressing one who cannot be a mere man, because he had walked in Eden, the garden of God. He calls him a "king,"' and he controlled the prince of Tyre. I believe it carries us farther back as to Satan than any other scripture-not the first information as to Satan that we have in the Word of God, but it carries us farthest back. What Dr. Barry refers to, is in verses 12 and 13:"Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God:Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering – the sardius, topaz, and the diamond; the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper; the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."Also, inverse 15, "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."And "Thy heart was lifted up because of thy beauty" (ver. 17).

C. C.-That shows what an exalted creature he was-a creature remember. He is not omniscient; he is not omnipresent; he is a creature, and originally was the most exalted creature. I believe he was the archangel. Another has been promoted to his place after his fall, but he was then the chief angel.

H. A. I.-Men speak sometimes of archangels.

But " archangel" means supreme angel; there is only one archangel at one time.

W. T. B.-Satan is able to transform himself into an angel of light, so, sometimes, it is difficult to know whether it is Satan or whether it is Christ.

C. C.-He does this to deceive. The test is the Word of God.

W. T. B.-Having these coverings he is able to do it. He has not been stripped of them, has he ?

C. C.-He continues to be a creature, and what God made him, in that respect.

W. T. B.-I mean that he has not been stripped of his coverings, his greatness, any more than man has been stripped of his endowments.

C. C.-He has lost his place.

W. T. B.-But he still has the coverings ? It is awfully solemn to realize that Satan is able to assume the form of an angel of light.

C. C.-He had wisdom before his fall. He has wisdom still.

W. T. B.-Does God allow the devil to use his power over the saints?

C. C.-I would say that God has so furnished us that we need not be deceived by him.

N. T.-" We are not ignorant of his devices."

A BROTHER:-Satan "transforms himself into an angel of light." He does things which to the mind of men look beautiful, agreeable, and right. He .transforms himself into an angel of light, as we read in Scripture.

W. T. B.-He is covered with beautiful things- sapphire, sardius, topaz, etc.-and calling attention to those things he gets people away from Christ.

C. C.-I think it would simplify matters if we think of these stones as symbolizing creature perfections.

C. A.-Let us keep to the 9th of Romans, brethren !

A. W. P.-What do you think "thus" (the last word of verse 20) looks back to ?

C. C.-Well, take Pharaoh for instance. If God hardened his heart, imagine Pharaoh saying, "Why have you done it ? "

A. W. P.-The apostle then answers this impertinent question of the creature, does he not ?

C. C.-The question is an insult to God. Man resisting God becomes hardened; his conscience becomes seared; then he insults God by saying, "Why did you do it?"

H. A. I.-It was Adam's sin in the beginning, saying to God, " The woman Thou gavest me." In other words it laid the blame upon God. That is what man is doing today.

QUESTION:-How would you meet the objection here inferred, that God is the originator of evil? How would you answer it ?

C. C.-There is a certain sense in which that is true. Understand me:I do not mean that God is the author of evil, but that He could have prevented it.

H. A. I.-By making men without wills-that would be the only way, would it not ?

C. C.-Now ask this question:Was it wisdom on God's part to allow the question of good and evil to be raised ?

H. A. I.-We need to see that it was in view of the eternal purpose. A question has been raised on earth, in time, that will be settled for all the ages to come. That question will never have to be raised again. It is raised and settled here on earth.

E. A. B.-When we isolate a certain circumstance in our lives, we might say:"What good is there in this?" Yet it all works together for good (Rom. 8:28).

A brother:-If man had not known sin, how could he appreciate the great things that God has done in grace ?

H. A. I.-I think what we need is to get this thought, that God is infinitely wise, and everything He does is for His glory (1:e., revealing Himself to His creatures), and we need not be afraid of this for it is the manifestation of His love and perfections. "God is light" and "God is love,"

C. C.-God has the sovereign right to manifest Himself. How could He manifest His absolute sovereignty over evil unless He allowed evil to come ?

A BROTHER:-Would it not have been easier, if man never had sinned ?

C, C.-He would never have known the glory of Christ and redemption.

A BROTHER:-We could not have known Him as Saviour if sin had not been allowed to come in.

N. T.-Which would you rather be:Saved for ever through the precious blood of Jesus Christ, and accepted in Him, or be with Adam in the garden of Eden ?

A BROTHER:-Is not that justifying sin ?

C. C.-After all, there is the existence of sin, and we must justify God in permitting sin to come in.

W. T. B.-That is different from justifying sin. I think it would be more correct to say that it would have been better if Adam had never sinned; or that Satan had stood the test, and remained an obedient creature under God.

N. T.-The 18th verse:"Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth "-does not that press the point of His sovereign right to do that?

A. W. P.-Can this purpose of God, spoken of, embrace the eternal destiny of every creature ?

C. C.-I think so. God's act in choosing the objects of His mercy necessarily leaves the rest to the doom they have responsibly incurred. God did not decree that men should be sinners, but reprobated sinners to death, and the judgment after death; it is a righteous reprobation from which His elect are saved. But it is a righteous salvation.

H. A. I.-While the examples given in Rom. 9 have to do with election as to things on earth, yet the purpose has to do with eternity. In verses 22 and 23 it speaks of "vessels of mercy afore prepared," There would not have been any vessels of mercy had it not been for God's purpose; while men become vessels of wrath by fitting themselves for destruction.

N. T.-I don't see the force of the passage if men fit themselves for destruction.

H. A. I.-Was not Pharaoh a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction ? The mercy of God shown him only served to harden him the more. He was manifestly a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction by his own behavior. The purpose of God has to do with mercy.